Curse

Ultimate_Gaara · Jul 20, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Well simply put people can do what they want and there is nothing i can do to stop it, all i can do is ignore it, but i think people who "sell" themselves online is very wrong, and if monks do it pretty soon every will think they can and the whole game will become "R/E for sale 2k" "E/Me will nuke for 1.4k" "W/Mo enjoys long walks on the beach and finnishing the mission 1k" and so on

but if monks do it im guessing that some people buy in it so maybe if people stop giving in to monks the monks will stop

Shayul · Jul 20, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I play a Mo/E, and people thought I played my Healer in an above satisfactory way. However, I disdain Monks charging for their services, as I believe that it gives us a bad name.

Just think about who Healer Monks represent in this game: Dwayna, the goddess of Healing. Would you, in true RPG fashion, think that she who heals just out of pure benevolence would approve of a worshipper who demanded money before he consented to help people with his deity-given powers? I think not.

Kishin · Jul 20, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethal_Poison

While Im not a fan of the charge-for-service deal....I have to disagree with some things that are being said.

First of all, the people talking about how "all classes serve a purpose, and should charge...blah blah blah"

No actually they dont. Im sure Im going to be flamed for this, but every mission in the game can easily be beaten without a mesmer, necro, or especially ranger. While the missions certainly can be beaten with any assortment of players as long as they are good, its much more difficult if you are lacking a monk, good area of effect damage, and tanks. Since nobody wants to play healing monks or warriors because they are arguably the boringest characters, yet make the base of most parties, that automatically puts a premium on them.

Characters like Rangers on the other hand, have no real need and serve no direct purpose, outside of designated puller. They dont do the damage of an elementalist, or can heal unless they carry a monk secondary, and arent particuliarly adept tanks. So at the end of the day, why wouldnt you be better off with an additional elementalist? Even though this fact remains, about 50% of characters I see are Rangers.

That is why a ranger doesnt deserve to be paid for anything. A monk, because they chose to play a boring character that nobody else wants to, and also simutaneously serve as a building block to most teams, has elevated themselves to a premium level, while overused next to useless PvE classes like Rangers are a dime a dozen. Its supply and demand in its most raw form.

This is probably drifting off topic significantly.

Any mission in PvE can be beaten with any combination of classes + 1-2 decent monks, so its not rangers and mesmers that are the issue here. The Warrior, Elementalist, Monk triptych of Uber l337ness is just what you get when people think at the lowest common denominator of "Damage, tank and heal" and completely neglect utility. I gurantee you there;d be a lot less whining at say, the Thirsty River monk boss, if people simply picked up a mesmer for that mission.

The insistence on having Warriors to tank has always especially amused me, as frankly, 75% of Warriors are terrible at it. Case and point: If the mobs are running by you and attacking the monk/casters, you're probably not tanking well. Those three classes are the easiest to play in Guild Wars, at least in their PvE incarnations. Even the cognitive-impaired can master the 'group things together and blow them up' aspect of an Elementalist.

As for Rangers, yes, it is a popular class, and yes it is often played badly, but then again, thats because most people aren't good players of classes deeper than say, Warriors. Don't blame the class for the general weaknesses of the game's playerbase. I've played, and seen, some very effective Rangers prove themselves as useful if not moreso than anyone else on the team.

Lastly, a good Ranger in PvP isn't just annoying: He's terrifying. There's no better way to panic a monk then to land 7 consecutive interrupts on him in the heat of battle. Even a Mesmer can't match a ranger for sheer interrupt potential if done right. (Though Mesmers remain the undisputed lords of countering/metaing against opponents).

Yen-lo-wang · Jul 20, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

One plus for rangers in PvP is if you get three or four guys with Ranger somewhere in their profession, whether primary or secondary, they can lay down some NASTY spirit combos before they get to work shutting down monks and ele's. It just utterly sucks when you try to rez someone, but that Frozen Soil keeps you from doing it, or when you have ten energy and you can't cast that Word of Healing or Healing Breeze because of that Quickening Zephyr (if I recall the correct Spirit there) boots the cost up to 13 or 14 while that Mesmer keeps slapping energy drainers on you.

No class is worthless, especially in the hands of someone who has decent knowledge on how to use the class.

woody · Jul 20, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Ok, back to the original topic/question posed. If you *DID* pay a monk for his/her services, how much would that be?

That is a tough one. I have had people pay me in the past if they felt I did a good job. (Please note, I never asked for payment, I guess they just felt sorry for the poor naked monk.) The amounts have been from 200g to 3p. Normally, of course, I refuse. (But you know in a support role the drops just don't seem to come as often.)

Case in point. The fun-run to Glint. I had a really nice group who felt that I was a definite benefit, so three of them (from the same guild) gave me 1k each. I refused (like all guilt ridden monks), but they were persistent and kind, so I accepted. So, did I charge them? No, not in the basest of methods, but I was paid. Would I have done it without the plat? Yea, without a doubt. Good PUG's are like a box of really good chocolate, you just don't ever want it to end.

What Would I pay? Well zero comes to mind. If I were all about the "run" I might feel differently. It might be a worthwhile service to pay an experienced character to ensure success on a specific mission. I just can't bring myself to do it. (Pay or Charge) I play to play. Sometime it's good and sometimes it's bad, but even when it's bad, it's still better than work.

noblepaladin · Jul 20, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Wow, from reading this thread, clearly there are alot of people who do not understand the game well. Basically right now everything revolves around seeing numbers appear on the screen. People want warriors to absorb damage, people want elementalists to deal damage, and people want monks to heal damage. However, if you have a good mesmer stopping enemy casters from using their damaging spells and breaking all the hexes that are put on your group, you won't need as much healing. If you have a mesmer that disables the enemy healer you won't need as much damage. And don't forget that using shatter hex on a warrior tank is essentially casting a powerful AoE spell (116 damage to all at level 12) and a damage prevention spell. Based on the current way people are playing, yes the Ranger is less useful and the Mesmer is less useful, however, it is solely do to massive ignorance that goes around. If the monk as a primary profession were removed from the game everybody with half a brain will be able to adapt and get through the missions fine. Rangers and mesmers make enemy casters useless and any warrior who actually plays a tank build (surprisingly tanks probably make up less than 5% of the warrior population) will laugh off arrows and melee attacks (note the griffon run where a single warrior can tank 40 monsters indefinitely, warriors can be made virtually immune to everything except spells).

The way people play right now is to deal damage faster than you recieve and try to stay alive for more than 10 seconds with two monks spamming away all their energy. If the battle lasts longer people die. I find it extremely annoying when I see a warrior's health decrease when he tries to tank, thinking that the two extra attack skills (rather than some tanking skills) he has is actually making a huge difference in the battle. If people would stop making characters that have no form of healing and no form of damage reduction (+ armor, stances, etc) then they will forever depend on monks and may even resort to paying for them. Every mission can be just as easily beaten without a monk if everybody makes builds assuming they cannot find one. Having 2 monks that do no damage and 6 others that do decent damage isn't the fastest nor the most efficent way to complete a mission.

JPong · Jul 20, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

I am Canadian and health care is free for the most part. My monk does not believe in charging for services, but a tip is appreciated once in a while. I do go out of my way to help people and thus have people message me asking for help with missions.

Lethal_Poison · Jul 21, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Yeah people in real-life hospitals get payed.

But so do soldiers.

And...everyone else who has a profession.

Yeah, but the doctors get paid a premium because their profession is difficult to achieve and complete, therefore making them a rarer commodity. Common soldiers on the other hand, are a dime a dozen, dont need extensive training or skills, and are easily replaceable. This is an easy paradox of Guild Wars.

Nobody wants to be a monk, therefore there are few ones around, much like doctors, and their skills are highly in demand, much like doctors. This gives them a premium value in the economy, even if they dont charge, monks have the distinct ability over any other class to pick and choose exactly who they go with.

Id hate to pick on rangers again, but there are 100's of them around, 20-30 at every mission spot, or atleast 3-5 times the amount of the next class. So, like the common soldier, there are a great deal of people who can do their particuliar skill. Furthermore, because their skill is so common, and 1 ranger can be replaced by any one of the other 20 or so standing around, and on top of that, they dont bring a great deal of unique ability to a group, rangers command absolutely no premium whatsoever, and tend to be the most frequent spammers of "R/Mes LFG for Mission". How could you say their skills are worth anything at that point? Especially when there is a boatload of other rangers willing to pay money just to be part of a mission group?

A majority of people in this game, and all games like it, want to be one of two characters, one that looks cool aka Ranger, or one that does a boatload of damage and is responsible for killing or being in direct action aka Elementalist, Warrior. Nobody wants to play a support character. If Mesmers and Necros had more practical use in PvE, (I personally think Ne/Mes packing blood and domination are excellent PvE), according to the Guild Wars community on a whole, theyd be of premium value as well, but as it stands they are a minority, but a minority whose jobs arent in demand.

Im personally a big fan of support characters, I have a Necro, Mesmer and Healing Monk filling up 3 of 4 of my slots, but on the same token, Ive spent hours on end in places like Elona trying to get my Necro into any party at all, forget about a well organized one. I actually finally had to wait until a guild member could help me out, and we did Elona with henchmen, and I did the other two missions with henchmen by myself.

I also have been on the monk side, every place I go, Ive got 5 invitations to join a party before my character even fully appears on the screen.

Thats just the way it is, and as long as there are mundane "boring" playable characters, thats the way its going to be.

Calimar · Jul 21, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

The real point is that you can substitute a warrior for an ele and vice versa in PvE and not miss much. You just need one of each kind, the you can steer away from premium without suffering much. Ranger and Mesmers and Necros share part of their roles too. So if you don't find what you want you can use the other to fill the spot.

OTOH, Monks are a necessity, because their skills can not be emulated. No one but monks can heal, and just about any party needs one or two. I say all the missions I've done so far (I'm at iron mines of moladune) can be done with hench monk. ALL. If monks start charging, I'll take alesia and lina. If I'm not the group leader, I quit. I will not tolerate a monk-charging trend to build, not around myself. Especially with the worth of your average monk.

There's one thing to be said about Alesia, that can rarely be said about your average human healer: Alesia focuses on healing only. (when she doesn't get crazed) she stays and cures you. Always. I lost count of the times when we were there fighting and at 10% energy shouted "heal plz" - while the monk was waving wands at some enemy or casting some smithing prayers or calling targets or roaming around happy-go-merry (alone). Being a monk can be boring at times - but if you choose that class, you choose a role: fulfill it.

I do play a monk - and the only thing that I really need to learn about monking in GW is take care of where the group goes. While fighting, I'm so concentrated on the healing that I rarely perceive what's going on around me or where my teammates are. Hell, sometimes I cast "heal other" on myself because I'm too busy to realize it is me that they are smiting

I won't ever pay someone to enjoy a game, unless it's a role playing decision. You are a mercenary, you ask me for a payment, I'll pay you. Hell, *I* am a mercenary and I happened to offer my help to a new guy for the right price (about 10 gold usually, it's the role playing decision that matters to me - and it's usually compensated by some drops I pick up and drop "because I'm not interested").

I won't support charging monks tho. Never.

Tutompop · Jul 21, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calimar

I won't support charging monks tho. Never.

Monks that should be charging are the ones at the fire island missions or possibly ascension missions and in some cases UW/FoW who more than likely have already done it. In these places there is a high demand for monks, usually filled by those of us who do not charge because we feel like doing a mission. The fools doing it soley for money would be better off solo farming. It is during the peak hours where 5 out of 6 other classes are playing and need a monk in their group that you see monks charge because they can. If you don't MIND waiting for the one who doesn't charge and would rather blow 20 minutes looking for a monk while there are 4 other groups trying to do the same thing, go for it. If your plat is that precious to you, keep it and lose 30 minutes to an hour looking for a monk. God help you if you need two, maybe you'll get lucky.

As for the mesmer/necro lowering damage, yes its true. However, a mesmer or necro has to play twice as hard as the monk just to compete. I can only speak for my necro since I haven't played a mesmer. While running with my necromancer I "can" make it so very little if any damage comes in and I "can" lower the effectiveness of enemies a great deal. I also have to be quick as there is a very small time window in which to operate when the enemy engages the group. Meanwhile the monk has a window at the bottom of his screen that simplifies the battle immensely. Imagine how hard it would be to heal without the group window, or even having to click each hero instead of his life bar. That is what a necro/mesmer must do to enemy mobs to be as effective as the monk.

The problem is there is an even smaller number of good necromancers or mesmers than there are good monks. When I made the switch in characters from necro to monk I noticed my groups instantly appreciated my efforts, some people may think monks are a thankless class but its the complete opposite, if you're any good at all you get all the glory while the other "support" classes have to spell out what they did to help. Believe me, I know when a good necro is in my group, but rational people are a minority in this game.

Algren Cole · Jul 21, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Calimar: Not a single mission in this game requires a primary healer...they're ALL significantly easier with one...but none absolutely require it. and on a second note my R/Mo can heal just as well as a Monk primary if I build for it.

Dragonkin · Jul 21, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Personally i think monks charging for their healing is laughable and could set off a chain reaction of other classes charging for their services, warriors asking for money to tank damage, ele's asking for money to deal damage etc.

Each class has a role, monks heal, warriors tank etc charging money to do something as fundamental as healing is just silly.

Tutompop · Jul 21, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

my R/Mo can heal just as well as a Monk primary if I build for it.

No he can't. Sorry but he may be able to heal as long as a monk not using any energy conservation(who does that?) through his power bar the first couple minutes of a fight but he will not heal for as much as a primary monk. If at the most basic level his orison heals for 50 and my orision heals for 50 he does not heal as well since my power regens faster. Lets assume we're including expertise/divine favor in this. Ok, so his costs less and mine heals for more but I still regen energy faster than him.

Btw, Wars may tank but they don't tank well. There is no way for them to control aggro in this game and as such the squishies get attacked who in turn get what? thats right, healed. The ones who do tank well solo farm just like the solo monks.

Algren Cole · Jul 21, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tutompop

No he can't. Sorry but he may be able to heal as long as a monk not using any energy conservation(who does that?) through his power bar the first couple minutes of a fight but he will not heal for as much as a primary monk. If at the most basic level his orison heals for 50 and my orision heals for 50 he does not heal as well since my power regens faster. Lets assume we're including expertise/divine favor in this. Ok, so his costs less and mine heals for more but I still regen energy faster than him.

Btw, Wars may tank but they don't tank well. There is no way for them to control aggro in this game and as such the squishies get attacked who in turn get what? thats right, healed. The ones who do tank well solo farm just like the solo monks.

allow me to rephrase, as what was said was said in haste...

My R/Mo can heal well enough that the team doesn't require a Mo/* to get through a mission. As long as they play strategically...listen to me when I tell them not to aggro a group and wait for my energy to regen I can keep them healed through battle...with minimal deaths.

Epinephrine · Jul 21, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tutompop

Btw, Wars may tank but they don't tank well. There is no way for them to control aggro in this game and as such the squishies get attacked who in turn get what? thats right, healed. The ones who do tank well solo farm just like the solo monks.

A warrior can tank well if the squishies let him - if they insist on being stupid then they get attacked. You can only tank as well as your party lets you.

That's actually pretty universal - you can only heal as well as your party lets you, you can only nuke as well as your party lets you, you can only debuff and counter as much as your party lets you. If you run with idiots you'll play badly, as they don't allow you to play well.

QuixotesGhost · Jul 21, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tutompop

As for the mesmer/necro lowering damage, yes its true. However, a mesmer or necro has to play twice as hard as the monk just to compete. I can only speak for my necro since I haven't played a mesmer. While running with my necromancer I "can" make it so very little if any damage comes in and I "can" lower the effectiveness of enemies a great deal. I also have to be quick as there is a very small time window in which to operate when the enemy engages the group. Meanwhile the monk has a window at the bottom of his screen that simplifies the battle immensely. Imagine how hard it would be to heal without the group window, or even having to click each hero instead of his life bar. That is what a necro/mesmer must do to enemy mobs to be as effective as the monk.

The problem is there is an even smaller number of good necromancers or mesmers than there are good monks. When I made the switch in characters from necro to monk I noticed my groups instantly appreciated my efforts, some people may think monks are a thankless class but its the complete opposite, if you're any good at all you get all the glory while the other "support" classes have to spell out what they did to help. Believe me, I know when a good necro is in my group, but rational people are a minority in this game.

Just to let you know, My monk now only joins groups that include a mesmer or a necro and I advertise as such. And I never fail to thank a necro who drops a blood well.

Tutompop · Jul 21, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

A warrior can tank well if the squishies let him - if they insist on being stupid then they get attacked. You can only tank as well as your party lets you.

That's actually pretty universal - you can only heal as well as your party lets you, you can only nuke as well as your party lets you, you can only debuff and counter as much as your party lets you. If you run with idiots you'll play badly, as they don't allow you to play well.

How is it the parties fault that the warrior can't tank? If a player gets inside the aggro circle he runs the risk of gaining the mobs attention. Since mobs often attack in groups there is an even greater chance of the squishies gaining attention. Casters can stay out of the circle if they cast at MAX range but even a foot or two closer and they're inside the circle. In theory it is easy to stay outside the circle but if you're not careful the ai will take you inisde the circle before a spell is cast. I'm not talking a distance with which you can reach out and touch the warrior either if I was i'd agree with you, those guys have no business being THAT close.

sidenote: Bad parties are indeed around, but they're often the result of two or three bad players. We shouldn't always pawn it off on the party though, thats what the bad players do. "it's your fault i got owned by 20 mobs because you don't heal fast enough to keep up with my skill". Usually it is the other guys fault but you should always examine the way you played just in case, to err is human but shirking responsiblity for those mistakes is ignorant.